Dear Kirk,
I have never paid much attention to how old people are. If people ask me to guess their age, I am completely stumped. It has just never registered much with me. I notice whether a guy is in good shape, whether he’s cute, and most of all how he treats other people, me included. But I’ve noticed since I hit my early 40s that I get hit on by lots of younger guys -- I mean 10 or 15 or even 20 years younger. I am very flattered -- who doesn’t like attention? -- but I have also realized lately that it is hard to communicate sometimes.
I don’t mean sex -- on the times that it comes to that, I feel that I can really connect with the guy I’m with. I mean the other times, socializing together or going out to dinner or walking and having a conversation. I find that a lot of the references I make -- to music or movies or famous writers or other people -- elicit a blank stare -- younger guys just don’t have any idea who I’m talking about.
I hate trying to explain things. Usually I just end up feeling stupid about wasting five minutes on some boring story about somebody I think is “famous”. What should I do? Signed -- Billy Pilgrim
Dear Billy,
I never play the game of guessing people’s age, because you’re always going to come up with the wrong answer. If a 50 year-old man asks you to guess his age, he wants you to guess 43 whether that’s warranted or not. If you say 47, he’s mildly disappointed he isn’t pulling off 43. And if you guess 50, he feels like he’s doing something wrong, since this is a culture where it’s not okay to look your age. And if you guess 54, he might throw a beer in your face. So good for you for not playing that stupid game. It’s in that genre of things one should only do in a bar, like folding napkins into bunnies.
You have a different set of cultural references than the younger men you’ve been dating. It’s understandably frustrating to you that these guys give you a blank stare when you mention a movie that maybe changed your life. As a younger man, I’ve received my share of blank stares from older men.
Here’s the tricky thing. The younger men in an intergenerational relationship often get smarter from being in that relationship. We’re expected to keep up with two cultural currents – our own and that of our partner. I have seen a lot of movies and read a lot of books because older men point to them as cultural touchstones. But I can also tell you the third song on Nirvana’s album “In Utero.” I can quote Winona Ryder’s lines from the movie “Heathers.” And I don’t expect older men to be able to do that or even appreciate that. And if I show them one of the movies I loved as an adolescent, I don’t expect them to like it. I show it to them because it helped form the person I’ve become.
Sometimes I find that there is a double standard around this: I’m expected to know all the cultural references from my generation as well as from an older partner’s generation, while the older partner isn’t as invested in learning the cultural references that followed theirs. This isn’t always the case, but I’ve seen it enough that I’m saying it out loud.
I’ll let you in on a younger man’s secret: it’s super annoying when an older man acts shocked that you don’t know who sang the obscure girl group song that comes over the stereo when you’re at Safeway. How can you not know who this is?! No matter how many times it happens, he seems genuinely perplexed that you weren’t at summer camp with him in 1966, hearing that song for the first time. And it can be worse if you’re in a group of older men and someone makes a movie reference: He’s a mere child! You haven’t seen that movie? You don’t even know who Alfred Hitchcock is, do you! Making repeated jokes about a younger guy’s age can make an older guy come off as obsessive, youth-fixated and desperate. By the same token, younger guys who take insensitive potshots at older men for being “out of touch” should get smacked upside the head.
My boyfriend and I approach this issue with a lot of care. We’re both interested in seeing and experiencing the best that the world has to offer. Being in a relationship, especially one that’s intergenerational, is a huge advantage because you have two cultural filters at work. I expose him to things that strike me as interesting and he does the same for me. That way, we’re both smarter and we never get bored.
It helps to have a social group around you that’s mixed in terms of age. It relieves you of the pressure to be your partner’s sole generational ambassador. Plus, it’s entertaining to watch a 21 year-old baby dyke turn your 59 year-old partner on to the second Ani Difranco album. If you live in a world that includes many generations, then things get REALLY interesting.
Kirk
PS: As for references, there was a folk rock duo called Billy Pilgrim. They made two records in the 1990s and they used to open up for the Indigo Girls. They did great live shows. Of course the other Billy Pilgrim became unstuck in time.
Kirk Read can be contacted at kirk@daddyhunt.com and welcomes letters seeking advice for this blog.
These are great posts! Keep
These are great posts! Keep up all the excellent writing and topic selection! Also, if you could, I'm dying to see more real couple interviews... the first few were great!
Of course young men will be
Of course young men will be attracted to an older guy. Young men are attracted to the apparent sophitication, wealth and experience. It can be a heady thing. Some of us have been in this position. It will continue to be a factor of gay life.
I don't understand why you find it surprising though that you do not connect on any other level except for sex. Isn't it obvious that this would be the case? There is a universe of experience between someone who is 60 and another who is 23.
I disagree that "wealth,
I disagree that "wealth, sophistication, and experience" is what attracts a younger guy to an older guy. I've always been attracted to guys who are 20 years my senior, but purposely stay away from the wealthy ones, as they usually just use younger men for sex. I like 40-50 year olds, but I prefer the rough and tumble ones who can keep up with me.... something about that is hot!
I may give you the experience thing, though, as I am usually attracted to men who are something of a mentor for me.
Of course there is "a world
Of course there is "a world of experience" between a 60 y.o. and a 23 y.o, but that hardly means they can only communicate sexually. We're both human beings, living in the present, and we can both learn from each other. Why should it be any different than between biological grandparents and grandkids, who often have very meaningful and strong relationships. If we can get past the age-stereotypes in our minds and connect on a genuine human level--no problem dude:-)
Kirk- I like what you say
Kirk- I like what you say about not making age an issue in the summer-fall/winter relationships and that there is a lot of benefits for both men. I am the older guy and have dated several men younger than me. It is flattering and who does not like that. I am culturally ignorant about some stuff, but I also find the younger men like to mentor me- and I am okay with it. And, I am not young and don't pretend to be someone I am not. In the end, relationship is about give and take in many areas of life.
All good comments. I've
All good comments. I've observed a 'case study' that is close to me. A co-workers son suddenly found 2 "big brothers" and began spending time with them - he is 22. Why was I not surprised when the couple broke up after a year and one of the 'bothers' began to date the 22 year old. It's been a year now - I heard all about the magical christmas decorations last year, the weekends away, the buying of the rings, etc etc etc - all the while I could not help but think about the life differences between the two - and all the while really wishing them well. My guys is 7 years older than me by the way. But now the fights have started, the magic is gone, and after the fantastic sex the relationship is filled with problems. I think to be 22 is quite different than 45. This one particular relationship is doomed I'm afraid - as far as long term goes - they just don't have much in common. I feel this is true of most May- December romances. I's great and fun for both guys for a short time - makes them both feel good - but is not good for a LTR for life. I'm 10 years and counting with my May- August relationship. There are a few cultural differences with us, but not as much as my friend's son's.
Actually, just wanted to say
Actually, just wanted to say "hi" and couldn't see any other way on here to do that. I always enjoy your writing, as you know! xo
As an older man, I find that
As an older man, I find that one of the nicest things about being with a younger guy is that it keeps me current with his taste in music, movies, etc. True, I do have to be careful to restrain myself when I hear one of the bands he likes--I used to make the mistake of saying things like "Oh, that's just like Bob Dylan!" or "She owes a lot to Joni Mitchell." On the good side, if you're knowledgeable about certain types of music from our generation (probably not show tunes or Judy, Lisa, or Barbara.etc.), it actually comes over as quite cool.
I don't do it all the time, but I actually enjoy going out with him to the clubs where the new local bands play. I've also seen movies I would never have watched otherwise, and I've really enjoyed them. I do get disappointed that, for example, he doesn't find Monty Python as funny as I do, but all in all, we do pretty well sharing our tastes with each other.
Topdaddy I do not feel like
Topdaddy I do not feel like pointing out the obvious flaw in your argument. You may want to read the post by "Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on December 17, 2008 - 11:47". This poster points out succinctly the inevitability of these type relationships.
You can keep deluding yourself that there’s a long shelf life to these type relationships. But I’ll say once again- If the 60 year old has matured properly, a universe difference in experiences would exist between him and the 23 year old. No way he could find someone at that age stimulating enough to have a relationship with.
I'm in my late fifties, have
I'm in my late fifties, have generally dated guys just a few years younger than me, so most of our cultural touchstones have been the same. Now I'm dating someone in his early twenties, and those touchstones are gone. It's a new experience and I'm not sure if it's right for me, though he's a great guy and we get along really well in all aspects, it seems. Your column is very useful to me. Thanks.
Amazing to make a big deal
Amazing to make a big deal out of a 7 year age difference! If the 22 and 45 y.o. couple are "doomed"--in the writer's opinion--it's because of incompatibility, not necessarily age. I had a great relationship for 10 years with a guy 18 years younger than me, had plenty to talk about and I liked being a mentor in some respects. Have known happy longterm couples with 20-30 year age differences. It just depends on the people--let go of your age-based stereotypes, Justin and others:-)
Topdaddy stop being a perv.
Topdaddy stop being a perv. There's no justification for it. If you want to mentor someone join big brothers or something - hmmmm then again please don't. You want to mentor someone, then do so without bringing sex into the equation
We are not talking about a 7 years age difference. We are talking about about a 20, 30 and in quite a few cases 40 years age difference.
Great post. Track 3 on In
Great post.
Track 3 on In Utero is "Heart-Shaped Box"
Lick it up, Baby. Lick. It. Up.
BTW - Im 46 years old.
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